About a week before Christmas, the January 6th Committee recommended that former President Donald Trump face criminal charges for inciting his followers, people like Guy Reffitt. Reffitt was the first insurrectionist to be prosecuted. We look back at how he ended up on the FBIās radar.Ā
On Jan. 6, 2021, teenager Jackson Reffitt watched the Capitol riot play out on TV from his family home in Texas. His father had a much closer view: Guy was in Washington, armed with a semiautomatic handgun, storming the building.Ā
When Guy Reffitt returned home, there were news stories about people being turned into authorities. Jackson says his dad warned him if he turned him in, heād be a traitor, and that: āTraitors get shot.ā
Jackson decided to secretly tape Guy, and turned the recordings over to the FBI. In the tapes, you can hear Guy bragging about what he did at the Capitol, saying: āI had every constitutional right to carry a weapon and take over the Congress.ā
Guy was the first person to stand trial for his role in the riot, and the case has divided his family.Ā
This week, Reveal features the story of the Reffitt family by partnering with the podcast Will Be Wild from Pineapple Street Studios, Wondery and Amazon Music. Hosted by Andrea Bernstein and Ilya Marritz, Will Be Wildās eight-part series investigates the forces that led to the Jan. 6 insurrection and what comes next.
Credits
Will Be Wild team ā Senior producer: Kat Aaron | Producers and reporters: Christine Driscoll and Alice Wilder | Associate producer: Marialexa Kavanaugh | Editors: Maddy Sprung-Keyser and Joel Lovell | Fact checker: Jane Drinkard | Sound designer and composer: Hannis Brown | Special thanks to Joaquin Sapien and Josh Kaplan of ProPublica
Reveal team ā Editor: Cynthia Rodriguez | Production manager: Steven Rascón | Sound engineers: Jim Briggs and Fernando Arruda | Digital producer: Sarah Mirk | Interim executive producers: Brett Myers and Taki Telonidis | Host: Al Letson
Transcript
Reveal transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. Please be aware that the official record for Revealās radio stories is the audio.
Al Letson: | From the Center for Investigative Reporting in PRX, this is Reveal. Iām Al Letson. |
Speaker 2: | We believe that the evidence described by my colleagues today and assembled throughout our hearings warrants a criminal referral of former President Donald J. Trump. |
Al Letson: | About a week before Christmas, the January 6 Committee recommended that former president Donald Trump faced criminal charges for inciting and insurrection. Today weāre telling the story of one man who believed Trumpās false claim that the election was stolen and acted on it. The story begins three years ago, Christmas Eve 2020, when Jackson Reffitt makes the biggest decision of his life. Heād been watching anime in his bedroom or trying to. |
Jackson Reffitt: | I just hear behind my wall, my dad talking about the government and Nancy Pelosi and itās all mumbled and Iām just like, āGod, this is just ⦠Itās crazy. Itās crazy talk.ā |
Al Letson: | Jacksonās 18 years old and lives with his family near Dallas, Texas. Heās come to the conclusion that his father, Guy Reffitt, is a dangerous man. Jackson decides to do something after he hears his dad say he plans to do something big. |
Jackson Reffitt: | And I know thatās very vague and thatās what I think triggered me to be so worried about it, is how vague it was and how I guess active he was. It just got to a point where I was getting so paranoid and anxious and nervous that I didnāt really ⦠I almost wanted to take this off my shoulders and give it to someone else. |
Al Letson: | Jackson, Googles, āHow to tip the FBI.ā A text box pops up. Jackson looks at the blank space and tries to psych himself up. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Okay. Iām going to do this right now. I have to do this right now. Get it over with. Iām going to just do it. I donāt know what my dadās doing. Heās a part of a couple organizations, Texas Freedom Force, I believe itās called. Heās prominent at Three Percenters. He says heās high up in the organization. |
Al Letson: | These are far right militia groups. |
Jackson Reffitt: | He says heās doing something big. I donāt know what, but Iām just worried. I donāt know where he is going. He might do something soon. I have no idea. |
Al Letson: | Jackson hit send on his message to the FBI. Jackson says he and his dad were not close. The older Jackson got, the more he came to see his dad as bossy and intolerant, but he didnāt start to worry about what his dad might be capable of until the pandemic hit. Thatās when Guy joined the Three Percenters and he started patrolling racial justice rallies. He said he was protecting private property. Several far right militia groups claimed the same thing, even though some of them ended up getting arrested themselves for things like assault and weapons charges. Jacksonās dad got obsessed with this one, Black Lives Matter activist. Jackson found out about it from his mom who knocked on his door late one night. |
Jackson Reffitt: | She talked about a BLM preacher off Facebook that my dad was keeping an eye on. I was like, āWhat are you talking about?ā Sheās like, āYour dad went to Mississippi for this guy? He tried tracking him to find dirt on him.ā And I was like, āWhat? This is weird.ā |
Al Letson: | Jacksonās dad has disputed this version of events. He says thatās all just his sonās fantasy, but Jackson sees it as part of a bigger pattern. He says his dad got deep into conspiracy theories, was stockpiling ammo, gasoline, water, and a generator, and that he was convinced that the electrical power in the US would shut down and the electoral votes would be reset. |
Jackson Reffitt: | He was clearly ⦠I donāt want to say unstable, I donāt even know a word for it. |
Al Letson: | Everything about Jackson feels at odds with his dadās brand of masculinity. Jackson wears his long wavy hair pulled back in a pink scrunchy. Thereās a miniature Winnie the Poo doll hanging from his cell phone, a gift from his girlfriend, and where Jackson is soft-spoken, his father can be aggressive. |
Jackson Reffitt: | This is a quote he uses a lot in his arguments, he put me in this world, he can take me out. Thatās a classic for him. He loves that one. Heāll get in my face, heās like, āI put you in this effing world, I can take you out.ā It happens a lot and I donāt think itās okay. And my dad has had moments of violence. Itās pretty horrible. |
Al Letson: | All of this is weighing on Jackson when he hears his dad in late 2020 talking about doing something big. |
Jackson Reffitt: | I was like, āI canāt call the police. I mean, theyāre going to come here and do what? Theyāre going to do nothingā. So I was just like, the FBI. I mean you can send in tips to the FBI. I mean, almost everyone knows that |
Al Letson: | After Jackson sends that message to the FBI, he feels relieved, like itās not his responsibility anymore. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Okay, thatās off me. Itās on their shoulders. Whatever they do, whatever they say, whatever my dad does, itās on them. |
Al Letson: | So what was that something big Guy Reffitt was planning. It all started after Donald Trump lost his bid for a second term. At first, guy was mainly watching TV and social media and just getting riled up. But on December 19th, 2020, things changed. Thatās when Trump reached out to his supporters on Twitter, urging them to go to Washington. His first tweet said, quote, āBig protest in DC January 6th. Be there. Will be wild.ā Journalists, Ilya Marritz and Andrea Bernstein, who now report for ProPublicaās democracy team, started investigating Trumpās role in the storming of the capitol and they began piecing together the bigger story of what happened. |
They learned that people inside the government had seen it coming for years and had tried to stop it and they reported on people like Guy Reffitt. Today weāre bringing you part of their podcast called Will Be Wild from Pineapple Street Studios, Wondery and Amazon Music. Itās a show we first brought to you in May and it focuses on Guy and Jackson Reffitt. Guy was the first January Sixer to stand trial, and his story sheds light on the motivation and inspiration for the insurrection. Ilya has this part of the story, starting on January 6th. | |
Ilya Marritz: | On the day that rioters stormed the capitol, Jackson Reffitt walks into the living room where his family is crowded around the TV. |
Jackson Reffitt: | I look at the TV, obviously thereās huge crowds. Everyoneās freaking out. Theyāre barricading the doors and my mom looks at me and sheās like, āYour dad is there.ā And Iām like, āWhat? Youāre lying.ā And theyāre just staring in disbelief at what my dad is a part of. |
Speaker 5: | Patriots, patriots, weāre taking the capitol after this. |
Ilya Marritz: | In shaky videos released later, you can see Jacksonās dad, Guy Reffitt, make his way through Washington. Heās wearing a tactical vest and a helmet with a GoPro style camera mounted on top. Thereās a bulge on his right hip. According to prosecutors, itās a 40 caliber pistol. |
Speaker 5: | Murphyās coming out on our [inaudible] ears. |
Ilya Marritz: | And you can hear him boasting to anyone who will listen that he has big plants. |
Speaker 5: | I didnāt come here to play games. Iām taking the capitol. Everybody [inaudible], weāre all getting dragged into [inaudible], kicking and screaming. I just want to see Pelosiās head hit every stair on the way out. |
Ilya Marritz: | When he gets to the capitol, guy is part of the very first group of rioters that pushes through a police barricade. They get to a stone staircase. At the top, a group of officers is protecting the doors that lead to the United States Senate. |
Speaker 6: | We have an individual reaching the West stairs. Stop the stairs. We need back up. |
Ilya Marritz: | Guy alone climbs the stairs. The officers tell him to stop. He keeps going. First, police hit him with pepper balls. Heās undeterred. Then they shoot non-lethal pellets at him. Guy keeps coming saying, āYou canāt stop us all.ā Finally, an officer holds a spray can up to Guyās face, he doesnāt back down. The officer releases a stream of pepper spray. Guy wobbles. The crowd booās. Minutes later, Guy is washing his eyes out with bottled water. He doesnāt make it inside, but the mob that was once behind him has pushed past the cops and is headed for the building. As the day is winding down, after hours of watching news coverage, Jackson notices his phone light up with a call from an unfamiliar number. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Theyāre like, āJackson Reffitt, do you have time talk?ā And I was like, āYeah, sure.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | Itās an agent from the FBI. The agent asks Jackson if heās in a safe place to talk. Jackson says, āHang on a second,ā slips on his shoes and gets into his car. Jackson has just spent hours watching the rioters battle police on TV. He now has a pretty good idea of the big thing his dad was planning. |
Jackson Reffitt: | I was like, āYour timing is impeccable.ā Thatās what I said on the phone call. |
Ilya Marritz: | And did they laugh? |
Jackson Reffitt: | No. |
Ilya Marritz: | Two days after the storming of the capitol, Jacksonās at home watching Borat 2. Itās about 10:30 at night and thereās a sound at the front door. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Iām sitting in the living room, he walks in, he hugs my mom. |
Ilya Marritz: | Jacksonās dad is just getting home after spending five days away. He has a friend over whoād been with him in Washington. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Heās an older guy. I think he said he was in the Korean War. I have no idea. And theyāre just talking. Theyāre like, āYay, we did it. We did what we wanted to.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | At this exact moment, as Guy returns triumphantly home, Jackson feels even more certain, he was right to contact the FBI. |
Jackson Reffitt: | And they were just talking about how proud they were and what they were going to do next. They were talking about taking down the media. They want to go to New York, they want to go to California. And he was bragging about how he saw this younger looking girl as a police officer, shooting him with rubber bullets and he was like, āNeed a bigger gun than that lady,ā Walked up to her and I donāt know, scared her off or something. I donāt know. And that was pretty much it for 40 minutes until the older guy left. |
Ilya Marritz: | Guy brings his AR 15 into the living room. Jackson was secretly recording. |
Jackson Reffitt: | I was sarcastic, obviously. I was like, āYouāre a hero.ā And he was like, āUh-huh. Yeah.ā And he goes on. |
Speaker 5: | Technically, I want to protect my country and I [inaudible]. |
Jackson Reffitt: | But you brought your gun on federal grounds, and I brought that up. Except carrying a weapon. And he was like, āYeah, but it says it in the hall that I could or the Constitution or Constitution says this. You should read this court case this. You should read that, this.ā |
Speaker 5: | I had every constitutional right to carry a weapon and take over the congress as we tried to do. |
Jackson Reffitt: | And I was like, āBut you broke the law. You did.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | Jacksonās mom and two sisters are here too. They say things like, āWow dad,ā as he shows off his bruises from pepper balls and impact projectiles. Mostly, theyāre just glad to see Guy home in one piece and they think to themselves, āHe didnāt hurt anyone. He didnāt even go inside the capitol. Whatās the worst that could happen?ā In the days after Guys return, the family is on edge. One morning Jackson walks into the kitchen and finds his younger sister Peyton, in a heated discussion with their dad about the riot and the feds who are now searching for suspects. |
Jackson Reffitt: | He kept bringing up about how the FBIās closing in, the governmentās closing in on suburbia in Texas and other spots and that theyāre going to shut down on all of us. And I was like, āWell yeah, I mean, do you know what you did? Isnāt it obvious?ā |
Ilya Marritz: | Every day the news is full of stories of people recognizing coworkers and ex-boyfriends from photos and video clips of the riot and turning them into the FBI. |
Jackson Reffitt: | āIf this ever happens, youāll ruin the family, youāll ruin what Iāve been doing. Youāll ruin ⦠Yada, yada.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | Then as theyāre standing there in the kitchen, Guy goes one step further. He says these words to his two kids. |
Jackson Reffitt: | āYou know what happens to traitors? Traitors get shot.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | That afternoon, Jackson leaves the house. He tells his dad heās going to meet up with some friends. Heās lying. He doesnāt want to give Guy any clue what heās really doing and heās afraid his father will track his movements. |
Jackson Reffitt: | My dad has a GPS tracker that he bought online that he can magnetize under someoneās car. |
Ilya Marritz: | So he takes a detour to his old high school, makes it seem like heās picking up his friends. Then he drives to a restaurant parking lot and looks for a black Dodge Charger with an FBI agent. Behind the wheel, Jacksonās not sure what to expect. Heās never met an FBI agent before. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Stepped into his passenger seat really awkwardly by the way, because itās just like, I donāt know what to do and heās really nice. This is a weird detail, but he smells exactly like my uncleās house. It was like right into my face. Uncle. |
Ilya Marritz: | Jackson told me there was something comforting about Special Agent Laird Hightower. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Heās like, āDo you need to see my ID?ā I was like, āNo, but sure.ā Whipped out his badge, clichĆ©. I have to point that out. Heās got white, short hair, very stern, heās a very Texan FBI agent. |
Ilya Marritz: | Special Agent Hightower has questions. |
Jackson Reffitt: | āExplain his organization, the Three Percenters. Are they the kind that just go on Facebook comments or is he the kind that go into the woods and shoot guns?ā And I was like, āI donāt know. He goes in meetings and he travels and heās been to Mississippi and heās very prominent online, but heās been very prominent in real life too.ā And heās like, āOkay, okay, got it.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | Jackson also shares some phone recordings heās made of his dad with the agent and they agree to stay in touch. After returning from the capitol, Guy gets seven nights of undisturbed rest in his own home. In the early morning hours of the eighth night, thereās a loud bang. Guyās wife, Nicole, is the first one up. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I just hopped up and ran to the door in panic. I opened the door and thereās just AR 15s pointed at me and theyāre yelling at you. And then I hear the flash bangs in the backyard and Iām telling them to stop. I knew they were there for Guy, they were yelling his name. So at that point, I knew that I just wanted the kids out and let them do what they needed to do. |
Ilya Marritz: | The agents arrest Guy and slide him into a vehicle. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I felt super nervous, that fight or flight feeling that you get. We do live in Texas and the United States and we have our home defense weapons and things like that and I wouldnāt be one to reach for a gun, Guy would. I mean heās the protector. |
Ilya Marritz: | Jackson missed all that. Heād spent the night at his girlfriendās house. When he arrives home, his father is a silhouette in the back of a government car. Jackson walks past without stopping. Agents are combing through the house. Jackson spots Special Agent Hightower. |
Jackson Reffitt: | I walked up to him and I was like, āOkay, where do I go?ā And he is like, āJust go be with your family.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | It becomes clear to the rest of his family that this cataclysm is landing differently for Jackson. Hereās Jacksonās older sister, Sarah. |
Sarah Reffitt: | His computer was the only one they didnāt take. They took mine. They took all the computers in the house. Just not Jacksonās. They didnāt go through Jacksonās room either. They just went in there and went in there. I donāt know what they went in there for because they didnāt do anything so we just were like, āWhatās going on here.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | Nicole remembers Jackson coming over and trying to reassure her. |
Nicole Reffitt: | And Jackson was like, āDonāt worry mom, everythingās going to be fine. Thatās been the plan from the beginning.ā And the FBI was still there and he was loving on me and everything, so it didnāt register to me until later what he had said. |
Ilya Marritz: | āDonāt worry mom, everythingās going to be fine. Thatās been the plan from the beginning.ā |
Nicole Reffitt: | And then I knew that it was him, although I kept saying, āNo, itās not Jack. No, itās not Jack,ā to everyone because- |
Sarah Reffitt: | I was doing basically the same to myself. I was like, āItās Jackson. And Jackson definitely did this.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | A few days later, Sarah is at work. Sheās a waitress at Hooters. |
Sarah Reffitt: | It was after a football game or whatever. |
Ilya Marritz: | Itās the end of her shift when sports clicks over to news and Hooters has a lot of TVs. |
Speaker 11: | Jackson Reffitt joins us now. I know you love your family and I know this is hard. |
Sarah Reffitt: | And I was just like, looked at the TV and Jacksonās on every single screen talking. |
Jackson Reffitt: | It just felt like the right thing regardless of my emotions and how I- |
Ilya Marritz: | Itās her little brother recounting how he turned their dad into the FBI. Sarah finds out the same way the stragglers at Hooters did, the way millions of Americans did. |
Sarah Reffitt: | My friendās bartending. She just started trying to turn off all the TVs. She threw the remotes at the other girls trying to turn them off. Sheās like, āIām so sorry, Sarah.ā |
Speaker 7: | Yeah, I was trying to get to the girls. It was awful. It was really bad. Yeah, it was really bad. |
Ilya Marritz: | Guy Reffitt was charged with five counts, including entering and remaining on restricted grounds with a dangerous weapon and obstruction of justice, hindering communication through physical force or threat of physical force. The last one is a result of Jackson reporting his dadās threat. Sarah knows her dad would probably have been arrested no matter what, but she blames Jackson for reporting the threatening words, āTraitors get shot,ā to the FBI. She thinks thatās the reason the FBI treated Guy, she says, āBasically like Dadās a murderer.ā |
Sarah Reffitt: | Jackson is my little brother and weāve lived together almost our entire lives. Heās not that much younger and I donāt understand how his thought process could be so different, is all. |
Al Letson: | When we come back, Ilya talks to Jackson and Sarahās mom about how her husband first got hooked on Trump in the first place. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Guy was head over. I mean from the minute when Trump started talking, he just really spoke to a large group of people. He really did. |
Al Letson: | Youāre listening to Reveal. From the Center for Investigative Reporting in PRX. This is Reveal. Iām Al Letson. Today weāre bringing you part of the podcast Will be Wild. It documents what happened before and after the storming of the capitol, roughly two years ago on January 6th. Reporters Ilya Marritz and Andrea Bernstein spent months investigating some of the key figures like Guy Reffitt, the first January Sixer to stand trial. His son Jackson turned guy in to the FBI. Ilya interviewed Jackson, but to get a full picture of Guy, he also spoke to his oldest daughter, Sarah, and wife, Nicole. Hereās Ilya again. |
Ilya Marritz: | I was nervous about meeting Sarah and Nicole for the first time. Nicole had been a little curt on the phone, and when I looked at the questions that I wanted to ask her, they seemed so intrusive. How do you feel about the fact that your son informed on his dad and now your husband is in jail? But when we met at a restaurant, almost immediately, they put me at ease. The Reffittās are warm and funny and talkative. You hopscotch from one topic to the next and before you know it, another hour has passed. Thatās how it went with Sarah and Nicole on my first day in Texas, and thatās how it went the next day when I interviewed Jackson. Nothing is off limits, no subject is too sensitive. And what surprised me was that their openness made it harder, not easier, to understand how the members of this family have come to such completely different conclusions about whatās going on in their lives. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Personally, I think my family, they overlook what my dad does as just him being, āOh, itās him. Heās just an American narcissist.ā |
Sarah Reffitt: | Nothing ever really bad ever happened, but Jackson, he held on to everything thatās happened in the past year and brings them to light like theyāre all these awful things, but really thereās not been that many things ever. |
Ilya Marritz: | Jackson and his mom and sister agree on the facts, not just of what happened around January 6th, but in the years before that. Where they disagree is on who Guy Reffitt is fundamentally, whether his rhetoric is bravado or a warning, whether his threats are jokes or real, which is to say, they disagree on what the truth of their family is, how they got here and what if anything, can bring them back together again. Nicole has bright green eyes and wears her hair on a punky undercut. For many years, she was the only Reffitt with any interest in politics. Even if as she was raising three young kids, she always had a history book or biography on hand. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I am a forefather fan girl, John Adams being my favorite. |
Ilya Marritz: | Sheās drawn to Hellraisers and Contrarians. Ron Paul, the libertarian former Congressman, Austrian economist, Friedrich Van Hayek, Edward Bernays, the ad man. |
Nicole Reffitt: | He actually sold World War I to America. |
Ilya Marritz: | Itās striking that Nicoleās husband is the one who might get a footnote in the history books because you can easily imagine Nicole with her considerable charisma, making a mark. I think she knows this. She says she wishes she thought to run for school board when she was younger. Lately sheās been reading Saul Alinsky, a liberal community organizer who is an inspiration to both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, and who lately has been adopted by conservatives. Rules for Radicals is his big book. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Rules for Radicals felt like the matrix just fell in front of my eyes when I read that. The main point that I got out of his book is that you never stay stuck. You always go with what the grassroots want, what they want in the backyards of Chicago, what they want in the backyards of Wiley, Texas. |
Ilya Marritz: | Unlike his wife, Guy has never been much of a reader. Nicole says Guy started taking interest in American politics when the family was living on the other side of the globe. Guy works in the oil business and in 2013 he took a job as a rig manager in Asia and the whole family moved to Penang, Malaysia. So it was from afar that Guy watched Donald Trump ride down an escalator into history in 2015 to announce he was running for president. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Guy was head over. I mean from the minute when Trump started talking, he just really spoke to a large group of people. He really did. |
Ilya Marritz: | And Guy specifically, do you know what it was that resonated with him or was it just the style? |
Nicole Reffitt: | I think the style. Guy is like that in a lot of ways. So boisterous, arrogant, heās an alpha male. So all of those things, just him and Trump were very similar. And then he started reading all of Trumpās books and Art of the Deal and I was just like. |
Ilya Marritz: | Maybe Trumpās wealth was a part of it too. The Reffittās had never been rich, but now in Malaysia, they could taste the good life. Guy was earning as much as $30,000 a month, Nicole says. They could afford to send all three kids to private international school. They lived in a beach house at first and then in a penthouse with a view of the ocean. They took trips to Vietnam and Cambodia. But after a few years, the price of oil plummeted and Guy lost his job. The Reffittās hung on in Penang for a while hoping things would turn around. They didnāt. Jackson remembers a hard landing in Texas. |
Jackson Reffitt: | I donāt know what happened, but we didnāt really end up saving any money. We just went in and went out. All five of us were sleeping on an air mattress with no TV, no nothing. Just nothing. Yeah, absolutely nothing. We were picking up bed frames off the side of the road. |
Nicole Reffitt: | We had no money, literally. And Guy didnāt let me know how bad that was. I didnāt know how bad it was. And so that was also hard because then I felt like he was lying to me and well, he was lying to me. Now in hindsight, he was probably just trying for me not to worry. But no, it was hard. |
Ilya Marritz: | The place they chose to live was Wiley, a suburb of Dallas. Nicole started driving Ubers and Lyfts. Guy found work installing sunrooms. It was not nearly the kind of money he made in the oil business. If candidate Trump appealed to Guy with swagger and big promises, now as president Trump, had something else to offer, grievance and resentment. Under the same roof, Jackson was developing his own political consciousness. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Iām very socialist. I just want the government to be involved just to help people out. My dadās been very prominent about his very right winging views and thatās drawn me very against those views because itās been shoved down my throat over and over again. |
Ilya Marritz: | This was the shape of things in early 2020 when the pandemic forced everyone into closed quarters and the conflict between Guy and Jackson became acute. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Jackson would be in his bedroom and Guy would be in the living room or at the kitchenette and I would be at work and my phoneās just dinging, dinging, dinging, dinging. [inaudible]. I had to mute the family chat because they were driving me crazy. They were literally driving me insane. |
Ilya Marritz: | This was last summer or spring? |
Nicole Reffitt: | Oh, it was all through the summer up until the election. |
Ilya Marritz: | Jackson wanted to join a Black Lives Matter rally in Dallas. Nicole offered her car. Guy overruled her. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Said, āNo, heās not going to take your car. It could be dangerous. It could get damaged. He could get hurt.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | Jackson made it to a rally eventually and it turned out Guy was there too, patrolling the streets, safeguarding local businesses, he said. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Once again, completely opposite situations. |
Ilya Marritz: | Guy had recently hooked into an anti-government militia group, the Three Percenters. They take their inspiration from the unproven claim that just 3% of American colonists fought for independence from Britain. It follows that a small minority can reorder political life around their beliefs if theyāre willing to fight. Nicole helped Guy to host a mixer for the local branch. |
Nicole Reffitt: | We had brisket and potato salad and rolls, tea, beer. |
Ilya Marritz: | She says there was a lot of talk about guns and hitting the fan. It wasnāt for her, but Guy was into it. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Guy was excited. COVID really had people in a bad place, Iām sure that goes across the board, and he needed an outlet and he found it there. |
Ilya Marritz: | Sarah sees the same thing. She says Guy volunteered to do background checks on people who wanted to join the Three Percenters, search their criminal history. |
Sarah Reffitt: | It almost sounded more like a Boy Scout thing to me. He was having a purpose basically. |
Ilya Marritz: | Where Nicole and Sarah are reassured, Jackson is alarmed. What he sees is his dad gorging on conspiracy theories. |
Jackson Reffitt: | Fox News took Carlson, all that. It just grew into Newsmax. And then heād be on his confederate page on Wiley Confederate page on Facebook. And I tried to gain an outsider point of view the way I handle situations. Like stuff my dad says, Iāll write it down and Iāll read it out to myself. And I did that and I was like, āThis is so weird to just see this written down.ā |
Ilya Marritz: | Itās not just words but actions. Jackson remembers guy buying a generator, stocking up on ammo, water and gasoline. Since the time he was young, Jackson can remember his dad occasionally having angry and uncontrolled outbursts. Now it feels more intense to him. One time Guy partied so hard in front of his own family, he passes out and they take him to the hospital. Guy believes he may have been drugged. And then the summer before the 2020 election, Jackson remembers his dad doing something that really shook him. |
Jackson Reffitt: | We were outside on the patio and my mom walked out. She was like, āYour dad just put a gun to my head.ā And everyone went quiet. It was my older sister and her boyfriend and me and Iām just like, āWhat? Thatās not okay.ā And then I stood up and I was like, āGuys, thatās not okay. Thatās clearly not okay. Say it aloud to yourself, seriously.ā And then nothing came about it. Not a single thing. It was just dad being dad. |
Ilya Marritz: | Guy has said this didnāt happen. But now when Jackson looks at his father, he sees a man who is riled up and violent. Whatever was there before, is closer to the surface. And so a few months later when Guy is loudly talking about doing something big, Jackson believes he really could. We know what happens next. Jackson tips the FBI in December. In January, Guy goes to Washington and joins the riot at the capitol. When Guy comes back, he tells his kids that traitors get shot. Jackson reports this to the FBI and then the Reffitt home is searched and Guy is hauled off to jail. You might think with Guy gone, the household would be a better place for Jackson, but he doesnāt think so. He expects fights with his mom and sisters. |
Thereās still a lot of stuff left unsaid. They havenāt had it out over what he did. And so Jackson moves out. He told me the best way to not burn his bridges is to just stay away for now. In the space of just a few days, the two most important men in Nicoleās life disappear. The first time I meet Nicole, she never mentions the incident with the gun. If anything, she underlines how harmless Guy is. Tells me his nickname is Queenie because he has a flare for drama, and learn heās deathly afraid of spiders. The behavior that bugs Nicole is Jacksonās, she thinks he overreacted when Guy said, āTraitors got shot.ā | |
Nicole Reffitt: | If he was so scared, he wouldāve taken his sister out of the house and left that day, but he didnāt. He didnāt like what his dad said, and I agree. He doesnāt have to like what his dad said. I donāt like what his dad said. Guy knows I donāt like what he said. But thatās not the first time that Iāve ⦠Iāve corrected Guy lots on his choice of words. |
Ilya Marritz: | Nicole says, āYou cannot take guyās words seriously,ā which is exactly what Jackson does. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I know Jackson hates the way Guy speaks to me, but like I said, I know where Guyās coming from. I did not want Jackson to be that harsh spoken as Guy is. And itās not Guyās fault that that happened, that he is a gruff speaker in that. It was how he is brought up and the industry that he was in. But Jackson is not that way. So I didnāt allow a lot of harsh talk towards Jack. Because Guy thinks that itās a manās world, this is how we talk and I donāt feel that way. And the only way to change the next generation is by teaching them that that is not okay. |
Ilya Marritz: | In that first conversation with Nicole, it seemed like absolutely nothing could shake the way she saw Guy. And then something happened that did. |
Al Letson: | Ilya will be back with the rest of the story in a minute. Youāre listening to Reveal. From the Center for Investigative Reporting in PRX, this is Reveal. Iām Al Letson. Today weāre revisiting a show we first brought you in May, featuring stories from the podcast, Will be Wild. The series looks at the January 6th attack on the capitol. Reporter Ilya Maritza has been telling us about Guy Reffitt, who stood trial for his role in the attack. In September of 2021, Guyās wife Nicole planned to attend the Justice for January 6th rally in Washington DC. The idea was to rebrand the people behind the attacks as patriots and prisoners of conscience. But Nicole never made it to DC that day. Ilya reconnected with her a few months later back in Texas and over Mexican food and beers, she told him what happened. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Cheers. |
Ilya Marritz: | Cheers. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Yāall donāt do salted beer up north, do yāall? |
Ilya Marritz: | No, we donāt. |
Nicole says that as she was boarding her flight from Dallas to go to the rally, another passenger made a complaint about her. She was pulled off the plane before takeoff, she says. | |
Nicole Reffitt: | And it was because of a Three Percenter sticker that was on my bag, that was Guyās bag. |
Ilya Marritz: | Maybe youāve seen it on a flag or bumper sticker. The Three Percenter logo is the Roman numeral three surrounded by 13 stars in a circle. This is the militia Guy joined, the one the Reffittās served brisket to in their backyard. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I didnāt even think about it, I just got the backpack. It was like a Jan Sport backpack. Never even thought about it. |
Ilya Marritz: | Now back inside the terminal, the tears come. She will not be going to Washington. Sheās overwhelmed by a sense of losing control. Nicole has always been good at compartmentalizing, but now itās a big awful mess. An irrational brain has no chance against an involuntary physical reaction. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I just could not stop crying. It just would not stop. I got really paranoid. I didnāt feel like I could trust anyone and I was just really overwhelmed. |
Ilya Marritz: | When she gets home, she locks herself in the bathroom and screams that she wants to die. Sarah is so alarmed she calls 911. When the police arrive, Nicole is taken away and involuntarily committed to a psychiatric ward. |
Nicole Reffitt: | And I was like, āI cannot believe this is happening,ā because I was put in involuntarily. |
Ilya Marritz: | This is resulting from the incident- |
Nicole Reffitt: | September, 8th. Yeah, I got put in on the 18th. |
Ilya Marritz: | And Sarah made the call? |
Nicole Reffitt: | Yeah. |
Ilya Marritz: | She spends about a week there. Sheās given medication and assigned a psychiatrist and she starts to tell her shrink whatās been going on |
Nicole Reffitt: | When I was saying why I was there and all these different things, and she was like, āWow, thatās a lot.ā And I was like, āIs it? Is it a lot?ā Because Iām living it so I canāt think of it on those terms, that fight or flight feeling. And thatās just so exhausting to have that feeling all of the time. And thatās- |
Ilya Marritz: | Had you been feeling that all the time? |
Nicole Reffitt: | Oh yeah. I felt like I was getting backed into a corner. |
Ilya Marritz: | All through this past year? |
Nicole Reffitt: | Yeah. I just kept feeling everything keeps coming and just keeps happening and you just want to have a day where maybe your husbandās not on Twitter or something. And it doesnāt seem to work out though. |
Ilya Marritz: | The Nicole I meet in November is less defiant, more reflective. She meditates, practices deep breathing, accepts the things she cannot change. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I donāt see my son. That breaks my heart. I have a hard time talking to Jackson because I get really upset. I do text him because I want him to know that I love him and to make sure he is okay. But itās so emotional for me that Iām just going to have to wait until we can see each other and talk, because I just canāt. |
Ilya Marritz: | She is talking to Guy though, as often as the jail allows it. |
Nicole Reffitt: | It sounds weird that my husband is in prison and that Iām content, but I get to talk to him every day. |
Ilya Marritz: | She has a pretty good picture of his life on the inside. Without regular shaves, Guyās facial hair has become wild. His nickname is the Lorax, like the Dr. Seuss character. Guy is in a unit with other accused January 6th rioters. They call it the Patriot Pod. Some of them pass the time playing Magic, the Gathering. Every night they say the Serenity Prayer and then sing the national anthem. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I thought it was dumb they were all together anyway. |
Ilya Marritz: | Yeah. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I mean, I donāt understand. You have people that obviously are passionate and now you have them all together. |
Ilya Marritz: | Seems like a recipe for- |
Nicole Reffitt: | It does. It really does. |
Ilya Marritz: | Still, Nicole thinks or hopes that Guy is growing as a person. Has he made friends? |
Nicole Reffitt: | Well yes. His best friend is Jessica Watkins. |
Ilya Marritz: | Youāre kidding. |
Nicole Reffitt: | I am not. |
Ilya Marritz: | Jessica Watkins is a trans woman and an army veteran. She went to the capitol on the sixth, just like Guy. Sheās been charged with seditious conspiracy alongside 10 others affiliated with the right wing militia group, The Oath Keepers. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Iām telling you, I canāt even believe it. Heās advocating. |
Ilya Marritz: | Is she in the same prison as him? |
Nicole Reffitt: | Yes. |
Ilya Marritz: | I wouldāve thought she was in a womenās prison. |
Nicole Reffitt: | No, Jessica is in that pod and not only is she being persecuted for a political ideology, sheās being persecuted for her identity even. And itās just wrong. Itās wrong. Her story to me personally, is the hardest story. |
Ilya Marritz: | Why? |
Nicole Reffitt: | Because thereās a lot of Christian outreach for our Patriots, but because of her situation, people feel that she doesnāt deserve the same support. And Guy and I have really just tried to normalize her story for these people because she is normal. |
Ilya Marritz: | I mean to me, sheās one of the most fascinating figures. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Me too. Me too. And thatās his very best friend. And I mean he even knows all the right pronouns. I mean, heās using them, something Iāve never thought he wouldāve done before. |
Ilya Marritz: | I feel like if Jackson knew that, maybe he would be impressed with his dad. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Oh no. Yeah, I think he knows. I do. Well I think I even said it to Jack, I said, āWell, one good thing coming out of all this, Dadās becoming more sensitive.ā I mean because I donāt think, because he had never been friends with a trans, he just didnāt understand. Thatās all it was. It was ignorance. And now that he knows, heās in the know and heās an advocate for her. |
Ilya Marritz: | I want to ask you about something that is difficult to ask about. While Nicole was feeling reflective, I thought it was a good time to ask her about Guyās behavior about the incident with the gun in 2020 that convinced Jackson, his dad was dangerous. Guy has denied this occurred. Jackson described to me an incident over the summer where he said that you said that Guy had held a gun to your head. And that was very disturbing to me, and so I do feel that I have to ask you about that. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Okay. Yeah, it happened. Twice, itās happened. And yeah, that is a lot of Jacksonās anger towards Guy. And like I said, heās said to me several times, āI canāt believe youāre married to him.ā And it is because Jacksonās so sensitive. Guy wouldnāt shoot me. But he was really mad when all the ⦠Obviously. And Iām not scared, I mean Iām not even scared of Guy now. I dare him to try to shoot me. But I mean, heās even discharged a weapon next to my head and Iām not sure why he goes that far, I mean because he is not going to hurt me. But he just gets more mad, like I said, itās like you canāt have an argument with him because he just gets more mad than you get, no matter how mad you are. |
Ilya Marritz: | Iām going to drop my objectivity here. Iām with Jackson on this. You donāt deserve that and thatās not right. |
Nicole Reffitt: | No, I know. I think Guy sees that now, maybe, Iām hoping. Yeah, Iām hoping that he does see it because thatās something that was very ⦠The last time that it happened, I said I will leave. I will leave. And not that I would want to, but you just canāt live that way. |
Ilya Marritz: | Why did he do it? |
Nicole Reffitt: | He just got more mad than me. |
Ilya Marritz: | Okay. Over what? |
Nicole Reffitt: | I donāt even remember what it was honestly. |
Ilya Marritz: | So I mean, do you stick up for yourself when something like that happens? When he does a thing that you know is wrong, that you think is like, āWe donāt behave this wayā? |
Nicole Reffitt: | I probably donāt as much as I should and maybe I will do it more now because Iāve always been independent. But the longevity of Guy being gone now, obviously no, I donāt think that Iām going to put up with being talked to like that. And he realizes that now. He got mad at me over the phone since heās been in a few times and Iām like, āI donāt have to listen. Bye.ā Because then what is he going to do? Whoās he going to call? So I have a little bit of power over that right now. All the decisions are mine now and thatās not really something Iāve ever had. So I like that. He may not like it when he gets out, but I like that. |
Ilya Marritz: | Itās like now that she is the head of the household, the sole decider in her home, Nicole is looking in the mirror to see how the crown fits. Have you talked with Guy about this? I mean I feel like youāre going through this whole reassessment of how youāre living, what your life has been, your family, your marriage. Do you talk about this stuff with him? |
Nicole Reffitt: | Yeah. |
Ilya Marritz: | You do? |
Nicole Reffitt: | Yes. And I am in a safe environment to do so because itās over the phone. He knows how I feel now. I mean I hate that heās in this position because I love him dearly and I donāt want anything to happen to him. But things work in mysterious ways. So maybe all this was meant to be, to have some clarity. And I think time and space always makes things more clear and I think heās seeing that too. |
Ilya Marritz: | Nicole has a master vision, a plan that goes decades into the future. Eventually, she and Guy will retire to Thailand where the countryside is beautiful, and the living is cheap. But before that, sheāll bring her family together again. Sheās going to do it through therapy, family therapy, individual therapy, and the kind of listening sheās recently learned to do with her psychiatrist. |
Nicole Reffitt: | At least everyone will have their say in a safe environment. |
Ilya Marritz: | Yeah. If it all comes to pass, how do you see that going? |
Nicole Reffitt: | I think itāll go well. I insist that it goes well. It better damn will. I want my men back. I want to be part of Jacksonās life, his entire life. |
Ilya Marritz: | But the very first step in her plan before any of that can happen is to get Guy released from jail. That means raising money for lawyers and building support for the cause. So the day after our interview, sheās driving to a Make Elections Great Again event, with retired general Mike Flynn, as a headliner. |
Nicole Reffitt: | A lot of the January 6th families gathering down there. It is a Mike Lindell event. |
Ilya Marritz: | Mike Lindell is the MyPillow guy whoās currently being sued for spreading the conspiracy theory that voting machines were hacked. And whatās your feeling about Mike Lindell? |
Nicole Reffitt: | I think heās fine. |
Ilya Marritz: | Thereās an eye roll here. |
Nicole Reffitt: | But I need to go and weāre going to try to raise some legal funds and everything while weāre down there. So itās like a necessary evil, is how Iām viewing it. |
Ilya Marritz: | While Nicole is swallowing her misgivings to try to bring Guy home quickly, Guy has made a choice that may keep him locked up for longer. And hereās what happened. After presenting photos that clearly show Guy Reffitt at the capitol in a confrontation with police, prosecutors offered him a plea deal. We donāt know precisely whatās in it, but the sentence for pleading guilty would likely be lighter than if heās convicted at trial. Guy Reffitt turned down the offer. As a result, Nicole and her kids were told they could be called to testify at Guyās trial in Washington. |
Nicole Reffitt: | Weāre just going to walk through the fire, is what weāre going to do. Weāre going to stand in front of 12 people and we are going to tell the story. And whatever they deal us, they deal us. |
Al Letson: | Since Ilya met with Nicole in Texas, a lot has happened. The trial ended back in March and after just three hours of deliberations, a jury reached a verdict. |
Speaker 14: | Federal prosecutors have their first conviction on charges related to the January 6th attack on the capitol. |
Al Letson: | The jury found Guy Reffitt guilty of five felony counts. In August, he was sentenced to more than seven years, and now heās in a federal prison near El Paso. Jackson testified against his dad in the trial. Guy Reffittās friend Jessica Watkins was acquitted of sedition, but convicted of conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding and other charges. Sheās one of hundreds whoāve been prosecuted for their role in the insurrection. You can find out so much more about that day and what led up to it by listening to the Will Be Wild podcast. Itās a fascinating investigation that looks at January 6th from many angles, including why Homeland Security failed to issue any warnings about the attack, even though people inside the administration were worried about extremism. You can find Will be Wild on Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts. |
Todayās show was in partnership with The Will Be Wild podcast, which is a production of Pineapple Street Studios, Wondery and Amazon Music. The Will Be Wild Team includes senior producer Kat Aaron, producer reporters Christine Driscoll and Alice Wilder, associate producer, Maria Alexa Kavanaugh, editors, Matty Sprung Kaiser and Joel Lovell, fact checker, Jane Drinkered, sound designer and composer, Hannah Brown. Thanks to Joaquin Sapien and Josh Kaplan of ProPublica. Our theme music is by Camarado Lightning. Support for Reveal is provided by the Ford Foundation, the Riva and David Logan Foundation, the John D and Catherine T MacArthur Foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, the Park Foundation, and the Helman Foundation. Reveal is a co-production of the Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX. Iām Al Letson. And remember, there is always more to the story. |