Earlier this month, former President Barack Obama stopped by a Kamala Harris campaign office in Pennsylvania and made headlines by admonishing Black men for being less enthusiastic about supporting her for president compared with the support he received when he ran in 2008.
“Part of it makes me think that, well, you just aren’t feeling the idea of having a woman as president, and you’re coming up with other alternatives and other reasons for that,” Obama said.
Within days of Obama’s comments, Harris unveiled an “opportunity agenda for Black men” in part to energize and engage this slice of the electorate. According to a recent New York Times/Siena College poll, 70 percent of likely Black male voters said they supported Harris, compared with more than 80 percent of Black men who voted for President Joe Biden in 2020.
So should we believe the polls? Reveal host Al Letson and Mother Jones video correspondent Garrison Hayes are skeptical. In this podcast extra, Letson and Hayes discuss whether Democrats should be concerned about Black men defecting from the party, former President Donald Trump’s own plans to win them over, and why they think one of the most Democratic-leaning demographics in the US will likely stay that way.
Dig Deeper
Listen: Red, Black, and Blue (Reveal)
Read: Obama’s Advice to Black Men Ignores a Deeper Problem for Democrats (Mother Jones)
Read: What’s Up With Black MAGA? (Mother Jones)
Read: Black Voters Drift From Democrats, Imperiling Harris’ Bid, Poll Shows (The New York Times)
Read and watch: I Spent a Week With Black MAGA. Here’s What I Learned. (Mother Jones)
Credits
Producer: Josh Sanburn | Editor: Kara McGuirk-Allison | Production managers: Steven Rascón and Zulema Cobb | Digital producer: Nikki Frick | Music and mastering: Jim Briggs and Fernando Arruda | Interim executive producers: Brett Myers and Taki Telonidis | Host: Al Letson
Transcript
Reveal transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. Please be aware that the official record for Reveal’s radio stories is the audio.
| Al Letson: | From the Center for Investigative Reporting, this is an election bonus episode of Reveal. I’m Al Letson. |
| Speaker 2: | So one in five Black men are saying that they’re supporting Donald Trump. Why do you think that… |
| Barack Obama: | You’re coming up with all kinds of reasons and excuses. I’m speaking to men directly. Part of it makes me think that, well, you just aren’t feeling the idea of having a woman as president. |
| Speaker 3: | Wrong approach, wrong tone, wrong message. This is the reality… |
| Speaker 4: | The party has to stop scapegoating Black men. Black men are not the problem. |
| Al Letson: | In this election cycle, the spotlight has turned on Black men, and it’s complicated. To talk about it, I invited my colleague and good buddy, the great Garrison Hayes. Garrison, how you doing, man? |
| Garrison Hayes: | I’m always doing well when I get to hang out with you, and I’m just hoping not to get into any trouble today. |
| Al Letson: | Well, as the great John Lewis would say, we can get into some good trouble. So let’s do it. You just reported an episode of Reveal called Red, Black, and Blue, which is all about Black Republicans. |
| Garrison Hayes: | I spent the better part of the last year reporting on Black political power. Even the title itself, Red, Black, and Blue, is all about putting Black people at the center of our political discourse this election cycle. And I learned a lot throughout the process. I focused primarily on conservatives, Black conservatives, because I thought that they might represent some of the dynamism, which feels like perfect for this political moment. But I had a lot of conversations with a lot of folks, all across the political spectrum, in the Black community. |
| Al Letson: | Listeners, if you haven’t heard it, go back and listen to his reporting. It’s excellent. And today, we’re going to hash out what’s happening on the Democratic side. Now, there are some recent polls suggesting that fewer Black men might support Harris then came out for President Joe Biden in 2020 and that 20% of Black men might vote for Trump. And with those numbers, there came a lot of hand wringing and finger wagging from Barack Obama and others about whether or not Black men are going to turn out and vote for Kamala Harris. |
| Garrison Hayes: | I do think that there is something uniquely frustrating about a conversation that scolds or looks down on the second-most reliable group of people for this party. |
| Al Letson: | Right, and the first constituency being Black women, who resoundingly vote Democratic. |
| Garrison Hayes: | We look at the gubernatorial race in Georgia, we look at Hillary Clinton back in 2016. Black men showed up for that woman candidate. And so, I guess there’s a little bit of frustration. At the same time, it’s created a national discourse. It’s created, at the very least, a conversation in the community that’s showing up today on this show. |
| Al Letson: | So Garrison and I wanted to kind of bring our group chats to you, so we got some of our friends to weigh in on this. This is my buddy, Adae. |
| Adae: | This idea that Black men are leaving the Democratic party to vote for Donald Trump this election cycle in large numbers is absurd. It’s absurd. It’s propaganda. It’s propaganda that’s being pushed by both Democrats and Republicans. And I think that Democrats are pushing it, so that they can use Black men as a scapegoat, in case Ms. Harris doesn’t win the election. I do think that Black people in general are having issues with the Democratic Party and how they deal with the Black community, but also, how they treat the people that have supported them since the late sixties. I do think that this is a time of reckoning for the Democratic Party and its Black supporters. |
| Al Letson: | Garrison, what resonated with you about what Adae had to say? |
| Garrison Hayes: | I do think that a point was made about scapegoating. We know the racial history of this country. We know that the history of this country is one that often looks to place blame on Black people, and they do that to Black women and to Black men in different ways. But one of the ways that we’ve seen every single election cycle is that there’s always this conversation about whether or not Black men will show up and “do the right thing” and vote along with Black women. And in every single election cycle, Black men do, to some degree. Sometimes, it’s at basically 90%. Sometimes, it’s closer to 80%, but they do every single time. And yet, the very next cycle, we are having this conversation again. |
| Al Letson: | Right. Right. |
| Garrison Hayes: | And I do think we need to interrogate that a bit as media professionals, as the “media.” We need to ask, why do we continue to do that? And what is the utility? But I think that politicians also need to ask, why is it that some Black men don’t feel represented by their parties? I think that answer comes a little easier for Black folks when looking at conservatives or Republicans. There’s the anti-DEI, anti-woke, anti-CRT stuff- |
| Al Letson: | Just blatant racism. |
| Garrison Hayes: | – and the literal blatant racism. You know what I mean? That’s definitely… |
| Al Letson: | It’s kind of a turn off to Black folks. I don’t know why, but it’s just kind of a turn off. |
| Garrison Hayes: | It’s a headline. Extra, extra, read all about it, Black people don’t like racism. |
| Al Letson: | Right. I don’t know. So I’m with you on it. I would say I wish the listeners could see me right now, because as you were saying that, I’m doing my hand like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Exactly. Exactly, that we don’t talk about why certain Black men or Black people don’t vote or why they’re looking for other alternatives than the Democratic Party. I had a conversation with a young man who I’ve known since he was 12. I met him when I was basically his teacher at an after school summer camp program many, many moons ago. And now, he is an adult, and instead of being his mentor, he’s my dude. He’s like a little brother to me. So this is Alonzo. I want you to listen to his answer to why he’s not voting. |
| Alonzo: | So the reason I’m not voting is because a past election, the Hillary and Trump election, the people voted for Hillary clearly, but the Electoral College voted and decided to give Trump the presidency. And that just showed me right there that our vote doesn’t really mean too much in the grand scheme of things. |
| Al Letson: | So I was glad he sat down and talked to me about this, because he points to something that I think we just don’t talk about a lot. I think the general conversation, when it comes to people who don’t vote, it’s either they’re misinformed or they’re not looking out for their best interests. And basically, they’re not very bright for not participating in the political cycle in America. And I would say that what Alonzo is pointing out is that he sees the world as it is. He voted and it didn’t count, because the Electoral College came in and they just took over. And I think, also, he grew up in an economically challenged neighborhood. And when Obama was the president, not a whole lot changed in his neighborhood. And so, we talk about these big political movements, but on the ground, especially in communities that tend to be left behind, not a whole lot seems to change. |
| Garrison Hayes: | And to your point, Al, as I was traveling around the country, but specifically in Atlanta, for our story on Red, Black, and Blue, I went to the Sylvan Hills community, which has been an economically disadvantaged place my entire life. My mom went to Sylvan Hills High School. And so, it’s been that way for her entire life, and it still is to this day. And very little changed over that time, and it really felt that it was just outside of the scope of what a president would change, what a different president would be able to render for that particular community. |
| Al Letson: | And that speaks to exactly why people feel, specifically why Black men feel, like, why should they vote? Why should they waste their time going down, if nothing in their community is changing? |
| Garrison Hayes: | I do wonder, Al, if we should make a case for why a Black man should vote, not who they should vote for, but just the act of voting. I think someone might be listening to this, and they say, “Yes, exactly, and that’s why I’m not voting.” And that makes me cringe a little bit. I think people should vote. |
| Al Letson: | Well, obviously, I think you should vote. It may feel insignificant, but elections have consequences. Your friend Michael talked about that. |
| Michael: | I think back on a conversation I had with my father, the night that President Obama was elected in ’08, as we shared our collective joy at what this Black man had achieved, seemingly the impossible, he cautioned me to understand that there would be a backlash to him ascending to these heights. I didn’t fully understand what he meant at that time, but boy, would we understand what he meant as the time wore on over those eight years and then, we experienced the four plus years to come under Trump. So immense pride in what we can achieve, but a cautionary tale to remember that the system produces certain results, regardless of the color of the president. |
| Al Letson: | I think Michael is speaking to something that I think about a lot, and that is America is a pendulum. And when it swings this way, really high to the left, it’s going to swing really hard to the right in correction. America is the country that elected Barack Obama and Donald J. Trump. |
| Garrison Hayes: | And one of the things that Michael kind of reminds me of, it’s just that moment in ’08 when Barack Obama was elected, it was so personal to me and it meant so much to me. Similarly, I know exactly where I was for the 2016 election and when Donald Trump was elected, and it felt very personal again, I was very impacted on a personal level with the rhetoric and the division and all that came with it. To see that America embraced that, at least some significant and powerful portion of America embraced that, it impacted me as well. And so, elections do have consequences. And we should show up and let our voices be heard, no matter what, because that matters. |
| Al Letson: | So let’s take a quick break, and when we come back, let’s dive deeper into how President Obama admonished Black men over who they’re going to support for this election. That’s coming up after the break. You are listening to Reveal. You are listening to Reveal. I’m Al Letson, and I’m here with my dude, Garrison Hayes. So Garrison, we’ve been talking a lot about Barack Obama, but we haven’t talked much about what he said recently. A few weeks ago, at an election field office in Pennsylvania, he called out Black men for making excuses for not voting for Kamala Harris. |
| Barack Obama: | I’ve got a problem with that, because part of it makes me think, and I’m speaking to men directly, part of it makes me think that, well, you just aren’t feeling the idea of having a woman as present and you’re coming up with other alternatives and other reasons for that. And I think anybody you are talking to in a barber shop, anybody you are talking to in your house, in your family, at church, who is coming with that kind of attitude, I think you have to ask them, “Well, how can that be?” Because the women in our lives have been getting our backs this entire time. They’ve been raising us and working and having our backs. And when we get in trouble and the system’s not working for us, they’re the ones who are out there marching and protesting. And so, now, you’re thinking about sitting out or even supporting somebody, who has a history of denigrating you? |
| Al Letson: | So the idea that Democrats would wag their fingers at Black male voters, it just feels off. |
| Garrison Hayes: | It does. I had a good conversation with a friend, and he told me that, on the one hand, he heard what Barack Obama said in kind of this kind of scolding kind of get yourself together kind of remark to Black men. He heard it, and personally, he felt like a little offended by it. But when he put on his kind of electoral kind of hat, he thought, “Maybe this is effective. It’s going to kind of just whip some people into shape.” And so, I’m trying to bring that nuance into the conversation. As I’m thinking about it, I’m trying to hold those two things in tension, but the reality is that no one is outdemocracying Black women in this country. |
| Al Letson: | I feel like you just made a word up. And I like it. No, no, no. I like it. I like it. Democracying. |
| Garrison Hayes: | Yeah. How many Y’s are in that word? |
| Al Letson: | So after this came out, my group text went crazy. There was debate from all sides, and I know you were hearing it too. Let’s listen in. |
| Speaker 5: | As far as President Obama lecturing or chastising Black men to vote, I don’t think it was with malicious intent. I do think that it is a tactic that does not work. I think we should be addressing why Black men are either voting for Trump or not voting at all. |
| Speaker 6: | His most recent comments around Black men are definitely disappointing, because when you look at the stats, when you look at who came out at the last time a woman was the Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton, after Black women, Black men were the segment of the population that voted for her the most. And so, I feel like this critique against Black men is a bit unfair. |
| Speaker 7: | And while it may look like Black men aren’t doing their part to uphold and bolster Kamala strong showing as much as Black women, what they are doing though is something that is supremely, supremely American. And that is to hold candidates accountable for their promises and making them take notice. And I think that’s what Obama did. He took notice, and he spoke to them. |
| Speaker 8: | I think Obama was correct. I think it’s solid for me, I think when I first started this, my vote was against Donald Trump, but now, it’s for Kamala. |
| Speaker 9: | If Obama had made the same comments to a room full of Black men and there were no cameras around, we wouldn’t care. But this is at least the second time that I know of, the first time being Morehouse’s convocation, where he has taken on this kind of condescending tone towards Black men and Black people in our choices. And I want to say, brother, read the room. He really doesn’t know how to read the room. |
| Al Letson: | So Barack admonishes Black men on the campaign trail, but then, a couple of days later, Kamala comes out with a plan specifically for Black men, which I have to say, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a candidate coming specifically with a plan for Black men. It felt like Barack was acting as the stick, and Kamala was acting as the carrot, that it was a planned thing to move Black men that are on the edges or possibly thinking about voting for Donald Trump. |
| Garrison Hayes: | And so, in some very real ways, Kamala Harris is taking a political risk in releasing an agenda specifically for Black men. What this agenda for Black men does is it contextualizes her existing policy proposals, the things that she’s been running on for the last 70 something days, and it places it within the context of the way these proposals will impact or will potentially impact Black people, Black men specifically. For so long, politicians have been afraid to talk to and about the Black community. They’ve been afraid that, if they frame their policies as something that will help Black people specifically, it will create a kind of racial resentment in the majority culture among white voters. It may turn them off from supporting them. And so, they’ve kind of walked around with this like, “Hey, guys, I’m for everyone.” And I think, if politicians do much more of the framing of their plans for Black communities particularly, we’ll have voters who are better informed and able to make the right decision for them. |
| Al Letson: | On the flip side, Donald Trump also tried to connect with Black men earlier this year, or at least that’s what a lot of people assumed he was trying to do when he started selling a shiny gold pair of sneakers called Never Surrender High Tops. |
| Donald Trump: | That’s the real deal. That’s the real deal. |
| Al Letson: | So I don’t think that I’ve heard anywhere Trump saying that specifically the sneakers were for Black men and Black people and this is his outreach to Black men and Black people. I just felt like that’s the subtext of it. And I got to be honest, I was offended, because if you think you going to buy my vote with sneakers, no. No, no, sir. Please give me policy over sneakers. |
| Garrison Hayes: | Yeah, I know that they framed those sneakers that way on Fox News that this was something that was designed to serve as outreach to the Black community, because obviously, Black people love their sneakers. That was the idea. |
| Speaker 10: | This is connecting with Black America, because they love sneakers. They’re into sneakers. This is a big deal, certainly in the inner city. So when you have Trump roll out his sneaker line, they’re like, “Wait a minute, this is cool.” He’s reaching them on a level that defies and is above politics. |
| Garrison Hayes: | I think more than the sneakers, Trump has repeated multiple times that his mugshot has helped him with Black people, Black voters particularly. And I can only imagine, as folks disproportionately represented in the carceral system, that he means Black men in particular. |
| Al Letson: | A lot of the young people that I have spoken to, I had a good conversation with my son, who is my youngest is 20, and him and I were talking about who his friends were voting for. And he was telling me that a lot of them like Trump. He also said they’re not actually going to vote, but they like Trump. And I was like, “Why do they like Trump?” And he said that they like Trump, because he’s tough, because he acts tough, because things like that picture of his mugshot or the picture of him getting shot at and him throwing his fist up in the air. For their generation, for a younger generation, that’s like Tupac getting shot and throwing the middle finger in the air. For my generation, that was classic. That was defiance. That was like, “You can’t take me out.” And so, Trump basically kind of took a page from Tupac. |
| Garrison Hayes: | Yeah, I definitely think that’s true to a degree. I think, for younger generations, I’m not sure if the framework of toughness, I think for millennials and maybe older, toughness really is kind of a part of that je ne sais quoi that Trump has as an appeal to Black men. I think, for younger generations, especially those who came up in the internet age, it’s his lack of care. It’s the unscripted, unwilling to kind of bow to social norms, that element, that kind of trolling element, I think, is what kind endears him to kind of the Twitch streamer generation. He is kind of in that reality TV vein that we see a lot of folks adopting on TikTok and YouTube and streamers on Twitch. |
| And so, he kind of comes off as this untouchable kind of guy. He just says what he… The term is “based.” He just says whatever it is that he wants to say, and he gets away with it and he’s rich and he has all this stuff. And I think that kind of countercultural affect is actually what kind of endears him to younger generations, even if they don’t have the language to necessarily put to it. | |
| Al Letson: | I think it all comes down to is that what Black men are looking for is action. They need to see change, because the Black vote has been taken for granted by Democrats. Black people, Black men specifically, they need to see that you’re actually doing something. They need to connect the possible future Harris administration to actually something changing in their lives. |
| Garrison Hayes: | That’s right. |
| Al Letson: | All right, and I want to end with just a question to you that I will also answer. Do you believe the hype, that Black men are leaving en masse to the Republican party and going to Trump? |
| Garrison Hayes: | I don’t believe the hype, Al. I think Black men will show up in majority numbers for the Democratic nominee, Vice President Kamala Harris. I think the number that we will see grow are those who don’t show up to vote at all, those folks who Terrance Woodbury at HIT Strategies kind of frames as rightfully cynical, folks who have been thinking about the political landscape and coming to the conclusion that this just ain’t for them, that the politicians aren’t working for them, that this country really isn’t working for them, and that their vote really doesn’t matter. |
| Al Letson: | I agree with you that I think what we may see more of is people who just decide not to vote. But yeah, I don’t think Black men are leaving en masse. I think that Black people are going to vote for Kamala. |
| Garrison Hayes: | There’s a Times/Siena poll that has Black women voting for Kamala Harris at 83%, and that is insane. That’s an insane proposition. Do you think that Black women are going to vote for Kamala Harris at a lower rate than Hillary Clinton? Than Joe Biden? Are you kidding me? |
| Al Letson: | Come on. |
| Garrison Hayes: | Come on, people. Come on, guys. And then, folks are driving narratives off of this. Are you serious? |
| Al Letson: | Right. That makes absolutely no sense. So listen, if we’re both wrong, we’ll come back on the podcast and we’ll say we were wrong. But I think that you’re going to see Black women voting somewhere around 96, 97 for Kamala. I think you’re going to see Black men coming in anywhere between 85 to 90% for Kamala, which once again, will be higher than any other voting group. |
| Garrison Hayes: | Exactly. |
| Al Letson: | That’s my prediction. Are you with me on that? |
| Garrison Hayes: | I like those numbers. |
| Al Letson: | All right, Garrison, thanks so much for coming on. |
| Garrison Hayes: | Thanks as always. It’s great to be in conversation with you. |
| Al Letson: | Our lead producer for today’s show is Josh Sanburn. Kara McGuirk-Allison edited the show. Special thanks to Artis Curiskis and Jamilah King. Nikki Frick is our fact checker. Our production managers are the wonder twins, Steven Rascon and Zulema Cobb. Music and engineering by J Breezy, Mr. Jim Briggs, and Fernando, my man, Arruda. Our interim executive producers are Brett Meyers and Taki Telonidis. Support for Reveal’s provided in part by you, our listeners. We are a co-production of the Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX. I’m Al Letson, and remember, there is always more to the story. |